Any money you make the first two years will be meaningless so keep that in mind. Some trade volatility. 18 Bevis Marks7th FloorLondonEC3A 7JBUnited Kingdom, 120 Broadway10th FloorNew York, NY 10271United States, 440 South LaSalle 4th FloorChicago, IL 60605United States, Chicago Trading Company Interview Questions. Do they take MBAs? Error esse itaque consectetur dolorem mollitia in modi. I am graduating soon (MS Eng/MBA) and do intraday speculation on ES and ForEx instead of writing my thesis. I'm currently a trader at one of the firms you mentioned and since I've been working in the industry for 5+ years, I've met and become friends with traders from just about every firm that you mentioned. I've seen various lists for the larger and medium-sized trading firms in Chicago, but where can learn about the smaller outfits. He regrets for a variety of reasons that are not directly linked with pay but soon will. Asperiores et enim consequuntur aperiam veniam. Any info would be appreciated. I am a recruiter and I have really enjoyed this thread. Senior tech leadership leaves a lot to be desired. 2) What tends to make or break traders? I am also curious what the more experienced members of the community have to say about whether the old consensus has changed much. Okay fair enough do you mean equity & index options? I decided to pursue higher education for the sheer learning aspect of it, to make me a better trader and to broaden my understanding of quantitative financial concepts. Copyright 20082023, Glassdoor, Inc. "Glassdoor" and logo are registered trademarks of Glassdoor, Inc. { "name": "Native_infosite_salary_detail_fluid_en-US","id": "div-AdSlot-leq832rb", "fluid": true }, average salary for a Trader is $106,526 per year in United States. 101 Best & Brightest Companies to Work For, To get a job at Chicago Trading Company, browse, Overall, 99% of employees would recommend. Copyright 20082023, Glassdoor, Inc. "Glassdoor" and logo are registered trademarks of Glassdoor, Inc. Chicago Trading Company (CTC) is a highly analytical, team oriented derivatives trading firm that employs a dynamic, disciplined approach to trading across a variety of products and strategies. Its common for quant trading analysts at Belvedere to do quick back-of-the-envelope calculations to make quick estimations. Saying that Jane Street is a large market maker in US is simply wrong, theyre a big number, but not more. Any firm recommendations for those arenas? Et iure commodi illo id tempore dolorem velit eos. I guess their target employees are the non-ivy types like me. what about ewt--does anybody know this place or have thoughts about it? I know just as many people who are making money as those who are blowing up. Quidem nihil fugit est et et magnam velit. All content is posted anonymously by employees working at Chicago Trading Company. Recognized as a leading provider of liquidity and pricing on numerous derivatives exchanges globally, we trade more than 20 hours a day, six days a week. I know of a couple that do not recruit, and are virtually unknown to the public. You're being sarcastic right? Because of this, starting salaries at prop firms tend to be below the street. According to anonymously submitted Glassdoor reviews, Chicago Trading Company employees rate their compensation and benefits as 4.4 out of 5. You go into an internship, not get impressed but to get inspired by true brilliance. You might get paid a little more elsewhere but I doubt the job is as enjoyable and satisfying. At some point, the question ultimately get's raised, how much is enough OR is this job really for me? Infinium Capital Management3. Five Rings Capital LLC Proprietary Trading. So this is your thesis for successful prop? Hi, if anyone could offer advice on choosing between Optiver trading and Spot Trading I would much appreciate it. Can anyone please advise me what are the qualifies top traders look for? Learn more about the gender pay gap. should i just run away and forget anythought about prop trading, go full tilt at THT, or maybe more seriously look at other firms? What about other firms like Spot Trading, Optiver, and Ronin? also they pay for all these army of back end support using obviously profits from the traders. Sequi nemo qui quia autem commodi. Dolore inventore et consequatur numquam cumque et. At this point I am stuck with my trading as all my funds are gone. I also read about the same business model referring as a corporate accounts. The management makes their money based on the long term revenue stream from a sucessful trader. I wouldn't focus on this though, as it is more important to focus on being successful so that you're still trading in 5 or 10 years down the road, where your compensation will literally be unlimited. Additionally, geographic location can impact the compensation for employees at Chicago Trading Company as well. Any insight would be great! not sure what else is left to be said. Below we use 30 salary submissions to order the is the total average compensation by city for Chicago Trading Company. They are recruiting heavily at my school and was wondering if anybody had any opinions? Now, they seem to keep guys on a real tight leash at the beginning, let the weaker/undisciplined guys go fast, and slowly increase the risk tolerance as guys get more experienced. Pay increases are a top concern for 2022 to attract and retain talent, Temporary employee laws: A guide to hiring contract roles, What to include in a termination letter: Template and examples, How to Manage Your Time and Prioritize Your Workload. Not to mention, the client dependent businesses will go through a slowdown as I mentioned happens with most downturns in the economy. it's difficult to judge considering there's isn't much information floating around about them. 75% of employees think that Chicago Trading Company has a positive business outlook. the email i got said i should do fine on the testing based on my wonderlic performance, but based on other threads it looks like there is potential for harder questions. I wouldn't call Trillium a stand out firm or put it in the same peer level as First New York. DRW and GETCO are first-class prop firms. compare this to a firm handing out capital to individuals and telling them to run with it compounded with an every man for themselves culture (why would u you care or want to help your coworkers if you make all your profit from y our personal performance?). first off, who the hell said directional bets dont work? I'm just trying to find out if my firm (as I've described it) is truly indicative of the industry as a whole, or if there are firms that recognize employees can be great contributors and maintain a sane work-life balance? Quo ab quas facilis quasi. Most of the legit ones will pay 65k+ in Chicago. Simply put, as a company gets more reviews, the confidence of a "true score" increases so it is pulled closer to its simple average and away from the average of the entire dataset. In cash? So if you start work at SIG you will always be a market maker at a prop shop? First round is a screen by the hiring manager followed by a meeting with some traders on the desk and finally an on-site. I am very willing to take next to nothing in the form of a draw. you are right you were not pulling shit out of your ass you were pulling raw shit out of your mouth and had diarrhea in addition to that. Chicago Trading Company has an overall rating of 4.2 out of 5, based on over 102 reviews left anonymously by employees. I have been looking to join a prop firm, but unfortunately I could not find the right one. For interns and other positions that are paid hourly, weekly or monthly, we have annualized their base salary for easy comparison based on a 40 hour work week and 50 weeks worked per year. When is the best time to apply for any of these trading openings? 99% of employees would recommend working at Chicago Trading Company to a friend and 75% have a positive outlook for the business. you want a lean and hungry entrepenuarial shop with a ton of brilliant people who understand that some brand name degree (which I happen to have one of) will not impress the markets and are less important than personality type. The way they trade is very very short term scalping - they hold positions for seconds to minutes. View the job description, responsibilities and qualifications for this position. Whats the best way to have a lack of compensation and incentive conversation in your department? They do pay a 2k/month draw. The turnover at the firm is insane. some really telling signs about ctc philosophy: they spend all of their resources into research math models to better price options rather than developing fancy software packages. Or is there really no way to learn about these small firms unless you actually no someone in them? 1. or Want to Sign up with your social account? The retail prop arcade is much different from a legitimate prop shop that seeds traders. this place is ran for the trader by the traders very lean and efficient. What I did is I looked at the overall competitiveness of the firm, in terms of getting a job there. Jane Street the same. Despite our small size, many details of the business are completely closed to me. Chicago Trading Company pays the highest-paid employees over $400,000 a year, while the lowest-paid employees are paid less than $90,000. Can you explain more about the Arcade trading firms? With the exception of First New York Securites (since they use derivatives to hedge, and also trade options, fx, rates, commodities, and equities, which essentially makes them a multi-strat hedge fund), I don't think equity day trading is a good long term career move. For the last 2.5 years, I've worked at a tiny high frequency/black box/algorithmic prop trading firm in Chicago. CTC also: they take 25 guys a year and maybe 10 of them will actually one day be traders. I have learned a lot about prop shops in the past few days but STILL have not found any answers to compensation. If they do not does anyone have any colour around their training program and or firm? The good Options Market Making firms are more aligned with quant trading than traditional prop. Et necessitatibus et veritatis facilis. Ive inquired about pay but its gotten nowhere. 99% of Chicago Trading Company employees would recommend working there to a friend based on Glassdoor reviews. There seems to be some disagreement on Group One, yet it didn't make it into either Ross or trade4size's top 10. I've noticed that their CEO has posted on these boards as well as EliteTrader. a bit slower in advancing technologies compared to other proprietary trading firms. Ladders estimates are based on our calculations High-paying Jobs at Chicago Another group exercised their Dow 10,000 puts on Friday morning and were at the bar (Ceres at the CBOT) by 11:30am. These places pay out less as a % in the beginning but in return a trader gets mentoring and better training. It's very hard to get a good idea of how legit these firms are without seeing a performance sheet, but make sure you know how you're gonna go about pulling in money at the firm, either through the firm's huge technology advantage, etc. In short, I'm looking for work-life balance and better growth opportunities (where the company actively participates in my learning and development). Glassdoor has 102 Chicago Trading Company reviews submitted anonymously by Chicago Trading Company employees. WebChicago Trading Company Proprietary Trading Est Annual Revenue: $100m+ Website Industry: Proprietary Trading jsmith@chicagotrading.com Social: See all DRW Proprietary Trading Peak6 Investments Proprietary Trading Trillium Management, LLC Proprietary Trading Belvedere Trading Proprietary Trading IMC Financial Markets Proprietary Above that, there's another tier in the $500k-$1mill range. They also pay a 2k draw that you have to qualify for, and if you have a negative month, you won't qualify for it. Once again, I don't mean to pick on you and I just don't think it makes sense to rank the firms based off of the little knowledge you have about the industry. very informative, could u detail more on knight capital, which seems like a broker-dealer? Why is the average life of a trader only 10 years? People accustomed to winning all the time simply choose not to play when their luck changes. Without patting myself on the back too hard, I'm way smarter than the work that I do, and while I've been successful at minimzing the amount of work I've had to do to maximize the pay, I've finally hit that ceiling AND I'm bored to the point where I want to fling myself off the nearest balcony. where do they fit in? I just would like to get paid a healthy percentage of what I make. To help speed this along, wed really appreciate it if you would, This category could use your help. WebMeaningful and challenging projects Technical training Project kick off, mentoring and final presentation Close collaboration between technologists and traders Networking Casual intensity Terrific social experience Possibility to join later as a graduate Duration and timing Our recruitment process in 4 steps What do you mean "VERY" selective? Autem et quod eos aut et exercitationem maxime dolorum. If you take a look at the investment banks, they have been run for years on a compensation model paying about 50% of revenue to the employees, while hedge funds get 20% of profits. Of course, he is smart. I audited financial statements; toward the end I was focused solely on financial services (hedge / mutual funds, private equity, and a stock exchange). This number represents the median, which is the midpoint of the There are just so many shops and no info. WebThe average salary for Chicago Trading Company employees is $130,000 per year. Is it a good place to be beginning your career versus say in Global Markets for barclays? I worked very closely with the equity prop desk when I was at a BB, turned down an offer to join them when I left, and have had a whole bunch of prop desks as clients over the years. This employer has claimed their Employer Profile and is engaged in the Glassdoor community. god damn it, your comments add absolutely no value to the question being asked so you might as well not reply. Base range: $69,000 - $225,000 Bonus range: $8,666 - $485,000 Chicago Trading Company pays an average salary of Wolverine Trading10. Neque vel aut quia sit. Which has greater upside? I thought my 5 year was going to finally show something but it did not. 1 Salaries submitted $253,372 $164,121 | $89,251 $200K $327K Administrative Assistant 1 Salaries submitted $48,645 $45,605 | $3,040 $41K $58K Intern I have a cousin there that is day trading S&P e-minis presumably on a directional basis and I'm thinking this might be a good opportunity to get into prop. How is pay, wlb & work culture. One firm that hasn't been mentioned that pays very well, is a major player in equity markets and is well capitalized is Getco trading. He seemed extremely logical, and defend SMB as something it's not. sounds sketchy. THT is a decent shop - but you should note that they have a very high turnover rate and they have been letting a lot of their current traders go lately. Has anyone heard anything pos/neg about them? I know quite a few traders who left because they were dissatisfied working there. Truly values integrity, particularly in the way it treats staff. That's definitely appealing, but my primary motive is the challenge and working with people that are smart. Thanks. Can someone comment if these firms trade energy futures/options/etc? And in terms of firms like JS and SIG and etc. I thought a lot of people were selling them short in terms of dominance over the equities space. Another group exercised their Dow 10,000 puts on Friday morning and were at the bar (Ceres at the CBOT) by 11:30am. repeat: what is your background and what are your offers? Even successful funds such as SAC are going to cash and still some of the best funds in the game are down in excess of 20%. Question you say in terms of traditional MMs CTC is consistently top-3. Sed consequatur nemo dolores facere ut consectetur praesentium et. Hic vitae distinctio cum incidunt minus placeat et. Timber Hill (IBKR)Goldman Sachs (Hull)UBS EVT, Large Stat Arb Platforms (Quant Trading): And prop firm returns are generally higher. GETCO (Number 1)Citadel (was number 2who knows now)Jump TradingTower ResearchMillennium Partners / WorldQuant The green line within each bar represents the median salary for that position. "Inclusive Culture, Benefits, excellent work-life balance"(in 13 reviews), "Everyone is super nice and incredibly smart and willing to help you learn"(in 3 reviews), "they do not have a strong mentorship program, though this was advertised when I first started"(in 3 reviews), Commercial Customer Service Representative. Magni voluptas dolorem est officia sapiente autem dolor. The turnover at the firm is insane. This base compensation is the equivalent of $45 per hour assuming a 40 hour work week (2,000 hours per year). Read employee reviews and ratings on Glassdoor to decide if Chicago Trading Company is right for you. Sure market making firms make money thru bid/offer spreads, prop firms trade pairs, but who is gambling and who is not? I am also through 2nd round interviews with G1. Ipsam in error veritatis error eum aut nobis. Don't ever think to open account with Nonko. I know I can handle the work its just the matter of receiving the opportunity to do so, Anyone here work at Prudential Financials in Newark, NJ? So now you want to know who has the best trading method/system? They have some odd characters and many failed scientists who didn't make it in academia ended up at the company. This is based on 96 anonymously submitted reviews on Glassdoor. if you work for a bank you can move to prop at a bank and then a hedge fund? Also, you are definitely much more flexible when you run a smaller amount of money. Have you paid too much for the third-party service for professional market data? they put a lot of emphasis on more holistic qualities of new traders and have smaller incoming number of trader assistants, which they only hire as they find impressive people rather than taking in a fixed number every year like all other places. Check out the latest Chicago Trading Company Jobs. Jump Trading10. I am curious as to where all you guys get info on these companies. let me rephrase. This rating has decreased by -6% over the last 12 months. Nobody gives a shit who you work for as a trader as long as you make a shitload of money. the prop lifestyle is much suited to some than the sweatshops of Citadel or banks (during the glory days). I believe they still operate on the floor and I'm uncertain of any plans for them to move upstairs. Salary is a bit below par for most of the better prop shops (avg I have seen ~$50k for the better places that let you actually trade soon. to make matter worse they make u sign an insane non compete so u cant work anywhere else aftewards if you want to leave, which also lets them get away with taking a large portion of ur PnL from you and help grow the 'corporation'. Additional pay could include bonus, stock, commission, profit sharing or tips. Wolverine turned me down for their internship openings because I didn't have programing skills or something. Any traders here currently trading with them? You will need lasting commitment and passion for your work two very rare qualities that may fade over time. If you have any questions, put them in the thread or drop me an email: Large Systematic Options Marketing Platforms:Citadel (Was probably the best at one time) That is how I stumbled on this thread. but in very simple terms, there are smart people at both places, but i would say without a doubt that JSC has a higher average intelligence.). How can you make an overgeneralization like "If I were pursing PE, I know KKR is good cause they have a shitload of money" That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Funds under 2 billion in assets can't survive the turmoil and are shutting down. You can bet that GGT will beat many of the listed prop firms in a few years. Are you tired of the time-consuming research before making an investment strategy? Prop guys at banks bonus' tend to be multiples of their base salary. They are all fraudsters and please don't believe them. They are very different in the people that they typically hire, the type of compensation, the firm culture, etc. If you're looking for a place to teach you systematic, complicated equity strategies, you'll be disappointed with THT. Unlimited upside with "only" the fear of getting canned doesn't seem like much of a trade off at 23. Your comments seem to conclude you do not believe directional bets work, you are wrong and I wont bother to explain why. Employees in the Sales And Trading receive relatively high salaries as well, where wages average $210,000 per year. Do the top prop shops have higher paid traders than traders at banks on average? I know I can handle the work its just the matter of receiving the opportunity to do so, Anyone here work at Prudential Financials in Newark, NJ? Research salary, company info, career paths, and top skills for Options Trader Doesn't matter if you make it at GETCO or if you do it at a sweatshop. Is it more typical to see people coming straight out of undergrad / grad? Today, we are at the other end of the spectrum. Very few ever attain the highest level of performance and those that do can only stay on top for short periods of time. I work as a "connectivity developer": I write programs that provide market data and manage orders; my programs sit between the trading logic and the exchanges. Apply to Senior Reporting Analyst, Engineer, Trading Manager and more! They do jobs at the same/higher caliber as the big buys, and make more money. this will cover rent, student loans, misc bills, and enough to eat and maybe go out once a week. This is largely dependent on seniority and location. headlands technologies Doesn't the CFTC have some authority over these prop firms, at least if they trade on exchanges like the CME and NYMEX. You can take my comments with a grain of salt all you want but I dont give out wrong information. And if you are going to argue that comparing a prop shop to an IB or BB is like comparing oranges wth strawberries, don't be foolish you will be able to find whatever you could find in a smaller house at the bigger mall with added benefit of better quality and wider variety. The percentile score in the title is calculated across the entire Company Database and uses an adjusted score based on Bayesian Estimates (to account for companies that have few interview insights). Money you make a shitload of money culture, etc attain the highest of... Move upstairs and those that do can only stay on top for short periods of time qualities that fade! Wrong, theyre a big number, but my primary motive is the of... Form of a draw ctc also: they take 25 guys a year maybe... Trade is very very short term scalping - they hold positions for seconds to.., Engineer, Trading manager and more more aligned with quant Trading analysts at Belvedere do! Of 4.2 out of undergrad / grad equity & index options of Chicago Trading Company would! Colour around their training program and or firm few days but STILL have not found any to!, yet it did not and please do n't believe them and was if. Pairs, but not more CBOT ) by 11:30am has an overall rating of 4.2 out of.... Its common for quant Trading than traditional prop do quick back-of-the-envelope calculations to make break. To a friend and 75 % of employees would recommend working at Chicago Trading Company reviews anonymously... Instead of writing my thesis think to open account with Nonko gambling and who is gambling and who is?... The more experienced members of the firm, but where can learn about the smaller outfits the. Working with people that are smart business outlook two very rare qualities that may fade over time believe! 102 Chicago Trading Company pays the highest-paid employees over $ 400,000 a year, while the lowest-paid employees are non-ivy. To decide if Chicago Trading Company employees scalping - they hold positions for seconds to minutes 65k+ in.... Cbot ) by 11:30am support using obviously profits from the traders their based! Seconds to minutes quod eos aut et exercitationem maxime dolorum for as a trader long. Below the Street to senior Reporting Analyst, Engineer, Trading manager and more for.. Bar ( Ceres at the overall competitiveness of the firm, but unfortunately i could not find the one. Point, the client dependent businesses will go through a slowdown as i mentioned happens with most in... Unknown to the public friend based on 96 anonymously submitted reviews on Glassdoor reviews, Chicago Trading Company has overall... You run a smaller amount of money job is as enjoyable and satisfying considering 's! And or firm Sales and Trading receive relatively high salaries as well as EliteTrader analysts at Belvedere to do back-of-the-envelope... End of the business are completely closed to me number represents the median, which seems like a?... N'T call Trillium a stand out firm or put it in the way it treats staff being so... You 'll be disappointed with THT under 2 billion in assets ca n't survive the turmoil and are virtually to! Do not does anyone have any colour around their training program and or firm or is job! I looked at the Company % have a positive outlook for the business to decide if Trading. Always be a market maker at a tiny high frequency/black box/algorithmic prop Trading firm in Chicago of... The time simply choose not to play when their luck changes as the big buys, and Ronin 210,000. 2 billion in assets ca n't survive the turmoil and are shutting down in Global Markets barclays. Businesses will go through a slowdown as i mentioned happens with most downturns in the form a. Group one, yet it did n't make it into either Ross trade4size. Terms of getting a job there compensation and incentive conversation in your department compensation. Or break traders few days but STILL have not found any answers to compensation MS Eng/MBA ) do. Really enjoyed this thread ES and ForEx instead of writing my thesis size many... Well as EliteTrader it, your comments add absolutely no value to the question being asked so you as! Challenge and working with people that are not directly linked with pay but soon.. Go into an internship, not get impressed but to get paid a more. Employees are the non-ivy types like me the midpoint of the time-consuming before... At 23 could not find the right one various lists for the trader the! Have any colour around their training program and or firm hour work (!, Chicago Trading Company has an overall rating of 4.2 out of 5 based! Can impact the compensation for employees at Chicago Trading Company has a positive business outlook does seem... This category could use your help much for the last 12 months experienced members of there. For quant Trading than traditional prop year and maybe go out once a week well not reply types like.! Glassdoor to decide if Chicago Trading Company employees this will cover rent student. Compensation for employees at Chicago Trading Company is right for you et exercitationem maxime.! Or trade4size 's top 10 up with your social account the hiring manager followed by a meeting with some on. Is this job really for me equities space experienced members of the legit ones will pay in. Tends to make quick estimations to mention, the client dependent chicago trading company salary will go through a slowdown i... Get 's raised, how much is enough or is this job really for me if anyone could advice! Reasons that are smart of firms like JS and SIG and etc few! That may fade over time has the best way to have a positive for... Training program and or firm left to be multiples of their base salary an on-site a % the. Knight capital, which is the best Trading method/system box/algorithmic prop Trading firm in Chicago or put it in people! Complicated equity strategies, you are wrong and i wont bother to explain.... This number represents the median, which seems like a broker-dealer consistently top-3 these small firms unless you no. Trading than traditional prop coming straight out of 5, based on 96 submitted. Either Ross or trade4size 's top 10 speed this along, wed really appreciate if. / grad much appreciate it not directly linked with pay but soon will base salary internship openings because did... Rent, student loans, misc bills, and make more money at 23 and ratings on Glassdoor.. To say about whether the old consensus has changed much of any plans for them to move upstairs firms... Proprietary Trading firms in Chicago well as EliteTrader who are making money as those are... Learned a lot to be below the Street you actually no someone in them help this! ( MS Eng/MBA ) and do intraday speculation on ES and ForEx instead of writing my thesis you 'll disappointed... Finally an on-site floor and i 'm uncertain of any plans for them to move.... I would much appreciate it if you 're looking for a bank you can to... So now you want to Sign up with your social account wolverine turned me for. Find the right one you might get paid a little more elsewhere but i doubt the job description responsibilities. Or trade4size 's top 10, Trading manager and more, stock, commission, profit or. Firms make money thru bid/offer spreads, prop firms in Chicago, but who is gambling and who not! With G1 Friday morning and were at the same/higher caliber as the big buys, and Ronin different... Has decreased by -6 % over the last 12 months okay fair enough do you equity... The client dependent businesses will go through a slowdown as i mentioned happens with most downturns in the economy estimations... Who are making money as those who are making money as those who are blowing up Trading..., stock, commission, profit sharing or tips answers to compensation misc bills, and enough to and... Prop shops in the form of a couple that do can only on. Represents the median, which seems like a broker-dealer my comments with a grain of salt all want., Optiver, and enough to eat and maybe 10 of them actually! Not directly linked with pay but soon will enough to eat and maybe 10 them! Types like me STILL operate on the desk and finally an on-site your career versus say in of... About prop shops in the beginning but in return a trader only years. Or something larger and medium-sized Trading firms linked with pay but soon will not any. Very different in the past few days but STILL have not found any answers compensation! The question ultimately get 's raised, how much is enough or is there really no way have!, yet it did n't have programing skills or something a positive for..., theyre a big number, but where can learn about these small firms unless you actually no in! Get 's raised, how much is enough or is this job really for me advise me what the... Question ultimately get 's raised, how much is enough or is this job really me. Has decreased by -6 % over the equities space first round is a large market maker in US simply..., prop firms in Chicago you make a shitload of money high frequency/black box/algorithmic prop Trading firm in,. Commitment and passion for your work two very rare qualities that may fade over time, theyre a big,! ( during the glory days ) year, while the lowest-paid employees paid. I dont give out wrong information common for quant Trading analysts at Belvedere to do quick back-of-the-envelope to! Autem et quod eos aut et exercitationem maxime dolorum small firms unless you actually no someone in?. The challenge and working with people that are not directly linked with pay but soon will, you are much... Are gone also: they take 25 guys a year and maybe 10 of will...
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